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Post by csale on Jun 6, 2005 23:33:23 GMT -5
another way to look at it is like this:
Take a current MLB player who follows a similar pattern.
Carlos Lee in 6 and a bit years has hit 166 hr and 604 rbi. Now prorate that over a 20 year period like Palmiero and you will find eerily similar numbers.
Is there anyone out there right now who would suggest that Carlos Lee should make the hall if continues this trend? Where would you rank him among the league's best?
Next question?
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Post by cangriimmortal on Jun 7, 2005 0:00:44 GMT -5
Next question? Why done so soon when I'm not done typing?
Palmeiro has a career OPS of .887
You take out the last two years, and it''s around .910-.930 career wise.
Funny thing is that he is going to reach 3,000 hits while having a very good career OPS. Not many guys in the 3,000 hit club have maintained an OPS that high, while hitting 550 HRs in their career.
Carlos Lee's career OPS is .833. Lee will have to have a major boost in his production in the new 6-8 years to compete with Palmeiro's numbers(Meaning around .950 OPS for the next 4 years, plus maintaining a .887 OPS for 8 more years after that.). Do you know what this means? This means he has to have an OPS of .920(possibly higher?) until he reaches 3,000 hits and 550 HRs to be compared to Palmeiro career wise.
Lee turns 29 soon, so i seriously doubt he will reach 3,000 hits seeing that he would need to average about 200 hits per season for the next 10 years. Remember, not everyone stays starting in the majors until the end of his career like Palmeiro has done. So as of now, comparing the two is hysterical and in no way should be mentioned in the same breath, when talking about careers.
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Post by csale on Jun 7, 2005 0:25:46 GMT -5
If you take Lee at value at all stages of his game (ie OPS) as well as age - yes - he will never achieve Palmiero's numbers. No argument. What you are missing is that the power numbers are very similar and that was what was used to clarify his right to be inducted. Do you need a better example? Carlos Delgado maybe? Pace for 19 years is 532hr 1675rbi 2237hits career OPS of .949 career avg. of .283. A little lacking overall in comparison for rbi's and hits - but consider that Delgado only had 220 at bats in his first 3 seasons - VERY SIMILAR PRODUCTION. Will Delgado last as long? Should it matter? Does Delgado belong in the hall? Bah - I really don't mind the guy - but do you really consider him an Elite player? I don't. What more is there to argue? Next question? Why done so soon when I'm not done typing? Palmeiro has a career OPS of .887 You take out the last two years, and it''s around .910-.930 career wise. Funny thing is that he is going to reach 3,000 hits while having a very good career OPS. Not many guys in the 3,000 hit club have maintained an OPS that high, while hitting 550 HRs in their career. Carlos Lee's career OPS is .833. Lee will have to have a major boost in his production in the new 6-8 years to compete with Palmeiro's numbers(Meaning around .950 OPS for the next 4 years, plus maintaining a .887 OPS for 8 more years after that.). Do you know what this means? This means he has to have an OPS of .920(possibly higher?) until he reaches 3,000 hits and 550 HRs to be compared to Palmeiro career wise. Lee turns 29 soon, so i seriously doubt he will reach 3,000 hits seeing that he would need to average about 200 hits per season for the next 10 years. Remember, not everyone stays starting in the majors until the end of his career like Palmeiro has done. So as of now, comparing the two is hysterical and in no way should be mentioned in the same breath, when talking about careers. |
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Post by cangriimmortal on Jun 7, 2005 0:44:35 GMT -5
If you take Lee at value at all stages of his game (ie OPS) as well as age - yes - he will never achieve Palmiero's numbers. No argument. What you are missing is that the power numbers are very similar and that was what was used to clarify his right to be inducted. Lee has not hit over 31 hrs while Palmeiro during one span hit 37 HRs or more in 10 out of 11 years (93-03) I dont see how their power numbers are similiar. Do you need a better example? Carlos Delgado maybe? Pace for 19 years is 532hr 1675rbi 2237hits career OPS of .949 career avg. of .283. A little lacking overall in comparison for rbi's and hits - but consider that Delgado only had 220 at bats in his first 3 seasons - VERY SIMILAR PRODUCTION. Will Delgado last as long? Should it matter? Does Delgado belong in the hall? Bah - I really don't mind the guy - but do you really consider him an Elite player? I don't. What more is there to argue? There is a difference there. Delgado is most likely going to be a hall of famer, unless he has a huge drop off. He has been one of the top offensive players in the past few years. He's a clutch player who always gets on base for his teammates. If he manages to have 4 more seasons that he normally has had, he's a lock to be in it, whether it is 1st ballot or not. |
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Post by csale on Jun 7, 2005 0:52:14 GMT -5
Damn Brew Crew... good to have you aboard!
Imagine how we will disagree by year 3! ;D
I will leave the Palmeiro debate as I don't believe there will be any change to either side here, and we have both clearly stated our viewpoints.
Good thing we only get 3 invitations.
Out of curiousity though, how would you rate the rest of the candidates?
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Post by cangriimmortal on Jun 7, 2005 1:18:39 GMT -5
Here goes nothing....
Benito Santiago - 1/5 (Obviously not HOF quality)
Frank Thomas - 4/5 (Best player in baseball at one time)
Rafael Palmerio - 4/5 (Consistent career being a very good-great batter )
Carlos Baerga - 1/5 (See Santiago)
Fred McGriff - 3/5 (Very, very consistent player. One of the top players from the late 80, early 90s. Remained a real solid hitter until his last season with the Cubs.)
Andres Galaraga - 2/5 (Nice player. People say he was just a player Coors field produce, but he did have nice seasons with other teams)
Roberto Alomar - 4/5 (HOF bound. Best defensive 2B ever and one of the best overall 2B ever. Definitely the best 2B during the 90s.)
Rueben Sierra - 2/5 (He was a nice player, but no shot at HOF)
Julio Franco - 2/5 (Was never a force, but a great roleplayer during his prime. I dont know how this man still plays in the major leagues at age 47.)
Kenny Lofton - 3/5 (Very nice player in his prime. Ran and fielded like crazy. Knew how to draw walks and hit well for average in his prime years.)
Craig Biggio - 3/5 (One of the better 2B ever. During the 90s, he could do everything. Field, walk, hit, run. He did it all)
Larry Walker -2.5/5 (Using park adjuster, his career OPS is .801 instead of the normal .969. Talk about Coors effect. However, he knew how to take walks and i can call him the best Rockies player ever)
Bobby Abreu - 1/5 (Didnt play enough to consider him HOF bound)
Roger Clemens - 5/5 (Somehow, he is better at 42 than when he was 22)
Greg Maddux - 5/5 (His years from 92-95 were amazing. I doubt we'll see something like that anytime soon)
Curt Schilling - 4/5 (Very consistent pitcher. Always has been one of the better pitchers in baseball)
Kevin Brown - 3/5 (Very good pitcher prime years. Should retire soon, as his numbers are looking worse and worse every time he pitches.)
David Wells - 2/5 (Nice pitcher. No shot for HF)
John Franco - 3/5 (Like csale said)
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Post by bozotheclown on Jun 8, 2005 21:50:10 GMT -5
i nominate: maddux clemens palmerio franco and Fred "Crime Dog" Mcgriff |
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Post by Dankbud on Jun 10, 2005 17:16:40 GMT -5
votes wil be tabulated and players will be inducted on may 1st.
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